WORM @ THE CORE

D.S. Moss comes back from the jungle for more adventures in death, yo. Life coach turned death coach, Devin Martin, gets filled in on Moss’ post-psychedelic reflections. This leads Moss to the ultimate question: how to live life with psychological anxiety of knowing you’re going to die? To help answer this question, Moss gets social psychology professor and egghead crush Sheldon Solomon on the horn to discuss if the fear of death truly is the worm at humanity’s core.

TRICIA EASTMAN

Tricia Eastman is a pioneer in the psychedelic renaissance with a mission to inspire others to become their own "inner alchemists". Her holistic approach incorporates eastern philosophy, tantra, bio-hacking, herbal medicine, mind body integration, archetypal mapping, meditation, somatic therapy, and shamanism.

For over 15 years she has consulted for top-destination spa and retreat centers on novel treatments and best practices. As an medicine woman operating internationally, she curates medicine retreats in countries where use is legal. She is an experienced ceremonial facilitator of 5-MeO-DMT, a powerful psychedelic medicine from the Sonoran Desert Toad.  As an Iboga provider, Eastman has been initiated into the Mboumba Eyano tradition, trained in the Missoko tradition, and she has facilitated the psychospiritual Iboga program for Crossroads Treatment Center in Mexico.

SHELDON SOLOMON

Sheldon Solomon is a psychologist and professor of social psychology at Skidmore College. He earned his B.A. from Franklin and Marshall College and his doctoral degree from the University of Kansas. He is best known for developing terror management theory, along with Jeff Greenberg and Tom Pyszczynski which is concerned with how humans deal with their own sense of mortality. Solomon is the Ross Professor for Interdisciplinary Studies at Skidmore.

He is the author or co-author of over a hundred articles and several books, and he has been featured in several films (Flight from Death) and television documentaries as well as countless radio interviews. He is also co-founder of Esperanto, a restaurant in Saratoga Springs, and inventor of the "doughboy", dough filled with cheese, chicken and spices.

Sheldon Solomon co-authored the book The Worm at the Core: On the role of Death in Life with Jeff Greenberg and Tom Pyszczynski.

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Music Attribution

transcript

OPENING SEQUENCE

MUSIC: Machinamentum Interruptus BY gavin gamboa

TRICIA

All fear ultimately is the fear of death. All motivation that we have inside us.

TRICIA

The fear of death exercise is really about connecting to your deepest darkest fears... 

D.S. MOSS_VO

That's Tricia Eastman, a modern medicine woman with whom I caught up with after a talk she gave on two of my favorite topics: Psychedelics and death. 

TRICIA

...But the most important part of the exercise is having a witness. Having someone else witness your own inner dialogue related to your fear.

(I'm not sure if this is right place to end the music, (Earlier?/later?) but I'd like to build some tension)

D.S. MOSS_IN

Shall we do it?

TRICIA

Yeah.

D.S. MOSS_VO

What we are doing - is an exercise to relieve anxieties stemming from the fear of death.

Location: The Assemblage - New York City, a co-working space for self-exploration and discovery. It can be best described as the Soho House of mindfulness - a social club, of sorts, for the beautiful and "woke". 

So there I am, at the Assemblage, sitting under a giant designer dream catcher.

I take a moment, corner my inner dialogue...Then I look Tricia in the eyes and say... 

D.S. MOSS_IN

....I fear nothingness.

...I fear the black. 

MUSIC: Healing BY Lee Rosevere
D.S. MOSS_VO

Tricia reciprocates by sharing her fears with me and then guides a meditation in which we visualize our deaths.

TRICIA

Start by closing your eyes...

When it is time to actually die it will happen to you in an ordinary living moment just like this one. The process of dying will take place now..."

D.S. MOSS_VO

The meditation begins with feeling the life force draining out of our bodies. From there we visualize our corpses dead and bloated...

...then reduced to only bones scattered about the ground. And finally just dust. 

(Fade out music)

This may sound morbid, because it is. But, it's based on a Buddhist Maranassati meditation that is actually quite common in Southeast Asia. The purpose of a Maranassati meditation is to diminish death anxiety of the physical body and create a sense of spiritual urgency - a memento mori of sorts.

After our total decomposition, Tricia guides the regeneration, starting with consciousness returning to the heart, followed by the visualization of strong and vibrant organs and muscles.

Then, with a deep breath, our life force returns.   

TRICIA

Now, slowly open your eyes and wake up. Sit easily and take a few deep breaths. How do you feel now? You've just died and been reborn. 

D.S. MOSS_VO

Now, although I see the power in sharing one's death fear followed by a Maranassati meditation, doing the exercise just once really didn't do much to relieve my anxiety of the nothingness. 

And so, understanding that there is no quick fix for eliminating the fear of my non-existence, the question then becomes, how do I recognize and control the influence the fear of death has on my daily life? 

SHELDON SOLOMON

My name's Sheldon Solomon, and I'm a professor in the psychology department at Skidmore College...

D.S. MOSS_VO

Sheldon Solomon along with Jeff Greenberg and Tom Pyszczynski wrote The Worm at the Core, On the Role of Death in Life.

SHELDON SOLOMON

...we've been studying for decades how the awareness of death influences just about everything that people do, whether we're aware of it or not. Mostly not aware of it. 

MUSIC: Machinamentum Auxilium BY gavin gamboa

D.S. MOSS_VO

Art, War, Religion, Plastic Surgery, Celebrity Worship, Greed, Mythology, Prejudice, Manic Consumerism, Tribalism, Instagram, Ego, Love - all, according to the findings detailed in the book, are mechanisms for which humans manage the subconscious terror of our mortality. 

Nothing like questioning the entire human narrative to start the season off. Please join me in episode 1 of season 2 as we peel back the layers of human behavior to see if the fear of death truly is the Worm at the humanity's Core.   

MUSIC:  "MEMENTO MORI" BY MIKEY BALLOU

RUTHIE_VO

From The Jones Story Company, this is: THE ADVENTURES OF MEMENTO MORI, A Cynic's Guide for Learning to Live by Remembering to Die - the podcast that explores mortality. Here's your host D.S. Moss.

CHAPTER 1: SO, DID YOU TELL HER?

DEVIN MARTIN

Welcome back to my office.

D.S. MOSS_IN

Thank you, it's good to be back.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Devin Martin, as you may remember from season 1, is my former life coach turned death coach turned ayahuasca-ego-death coach. 

DEVIN MARTIN

Alright, so tell me what your life has looked like since coming back from the jungle, and more importantly tell me about (BLEEP).

D.S. MOSS_VO

We left off season one in the Amazon jungle with me attempting to reach white light ego death. Although that totally eluded me, there was, however, an astonishing revelation that surfaced during the last ayahuasca ceremony...

But then something crazier happened. I started to see all of these breadcrumbs that were totally obvious and they lead me to (bleep). (bleep) is my partner. She's been the one this entire time. It seemed so obvious. Everything was so clear. I think I'm in love with (bleep).

D.S. MOSS_VO

As with ego death, the cinematic happy love story ending also eluded me. 

D.S. Moss_IN

I didn't profess my love in an Ethan Hawke sort of way. As in, I didn't throw rocks at her window and say I love you.

DEVIN MARTIN

You didn't hold a boombox over your head. Did you ask her out on a date?

D.S. Moss_IN

She was unavailable. In that ...

DEVIN MARTIN

So it's, since you came back, she's been in a relationship?

D.S. MOSS

Yeah.

DEVIN MARTIN

She has no idea?

D.S. Moss_IN

I don't know. I suspect she doesn't.

DEVIN MARTIN

Have you convinced yourself that you were wrong?

D.S. Moss_IN

Not, entirely. Keep in mind, I do recognize that five [00:09:30] minutes prior to that, I was seeing the giant praying mantis overlord.

DEVIN MARTIN

Which may be true....Or maybe a metaphor?

D.S. Moss_IN

Maybe, it's all a metaphor, but then, I think what I've convinced myself of is that, does it have to be, can I still have that affection for her without her having to be mine. 

...You're giving me a look. You're scrunching your brow.

DEVIN MARTIN

Do you want to be in a relationship with anyone?

D.S. Moss_IN

Yeah. Oh yeah, but I guess that's why I have a dog.

DEVIN MARTIN

There are a few needs I hope your dog is not fulfilling.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Anyway, enough about that, because there was something even more important that came out of the trip... 

D.S. Moss_IN

I'm actually, did I tell you this? I'm going back to school.

DEVIN MARTIN

No. What for?

D.S. Moss_IN

I want to do social psychology...I love exploring...my own psychology, but surprisingly, I'm fascinated by human group behavior [00:26:30] just surprises me, and stuns me to no end. So, I want to study propaganda and just general, tribal psychology.

DEVIN MARTIN

You want to know why Trump won.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Well that, but even beyond the 2016 election, I want to study why people do what they do, particularly when it goes against their own moral and financial interests. 

(If I delete the paragraph before this, does it now sound like when I say "His" I'm referring back to DEvin Martin? Cause that'd be perfect if it did)

MUSIC: Freedom drops By ARI de niro

D.S. MOSS_VO

His guidance was to simply find a book written by an academic on the psychology topic that interests me the most. Then, reach out to them and see about going to their school.  

Of course, that book...was an absolute no brainer.

D.S. MOSS_VO

The call was to Sheldon Solomon the co-author of The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. 

(Let the sound play for a couple of seconds before you start his next line)

CHAPTER 3: THE WORM AT THE CORE

SHELDON SOLOMON

..."The Worm at the Core" is a phrase that was coined by William James. Back in the 1800s, late 1800s, he referred to death as the worm at the core of the human experience. 

D.S. MOSS_VO

However, old habits die hard and before asking about post-graduate advice, we ended up chatting about death. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

It's a not-so-subtle allusion to Adam and Eve, in the garden, being tempted with the apple from the tree of knowledge, and of course the apple is beautiful, and the apple tastes good, and knowledge is generally not a bad thing, either.

D.S. MOSS_VO

But "the worm at the core" also implies that underneath the skin and the meaty part - when you get to the...

...center - there's something unpleasant at work.

For most us, most of the time, life is shiny and tastes pretty sweet, but deep down in our subconscious we struggle with a brutal reality.

SHELDON SOLOMON

...And that's the fact that we will not be here forever, and that's extraordinarily disconcerting and discombobulating.

That was James' basic point, which then Becker, 100 years later, wins a Pulitzer Prize for elaborating on in his book, The Denial of Death.

CHAPTER 4: ERNST BECKER & TMT

D.S. MOSS_VO

In The Denial of Death, published in 1973, Becker combines the disciplines of archaeology, philosophy and psychology to make the case that...

RUTHIE_VO

The uniquely human awareness of death gives rise to potentially paralyzing existential terror - and civilization (i.e. culture) is an elaborate symbolic defense mechanism with fantastic narratives that serve to manage that terror.

Basically, we make shit up in order to survive. 

D.S. MOSS_VO

I thought that would sound a bit less threatening to the scaffolding of your existence coming from Ruthie. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

...Specifically, he just said, "Look, in some ways, we're no different than any other creatures. We're designed by evolution to survive, so we have the same biological predisposition towards self-preservation as all other life forms. On the other hand, we do have a big brain that enables us to think abstractly and symbolically, and that's awesome, because we get to the point where we can imagine things that don't even exist, and then make them real."

MUSIC: Duets by Satellite Ensemble

D.S. MOSS_VO

Compared to other animals, humans actually aren't that well equipped for survival. We're slow. Our eyesight is below average, our hearing and sense of smell flat out suck. Our gestation period is average for large mammals, but - by far - we take the longest to mature making us incredibly vulnerable to predators.

At the age of 3, humans are still suckling while a horse, for example, has already won the Kentucky Derby.  

SOUND: Horse.wav

So then how did we manage to conquer and subjugate the natural world? 

Our imagination. Our ability to make the unreal real. 

However...

SHELDON SOLOMON

...unless you're either very young or neurologically impaired, if you're smart enough to know that you're here, you're also smart enough to realize that, like all living things, your life is of finite duration, and additionally, you realize that you can die at any minute for reasons that you couldn't anticipate or control.

D.S. MOSS_VO

That's what we call a good ol' fashion existential crisis - The splendor of knowing we exist in conflict with the dread of knowing that we will no longer exist. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

Then Becker just adds another kind of psychological knee to the groin. He's like, "Yeah. We don't like that we know we have to die. We don't like that we could die at any time, and we don't like that we're animals, breathing pieces of defecating meat that are no more significant or enduring than lizards or potatoes."

D.S. MOSS_VO

And that's what we call good ol' fashion existential terror - So now, not only are we dealing the rub of self-awareness, Becker also says that...

RUTHIE_VO

...deep down we also know we're still just animals that are no more significant or enduring than lizards or potatoes.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Again, just trying to soften the edge a bit. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

What Becker argued is that human beings would literally be paralyzed with abject terror if we were constantly aware of the reality of the human condition, and what we do to manage that terror is to embrace culturally constructed belief systems- Becker called them "cultural worldviews"- humanly constructed belief systems that we share with people in a group.

What those belief systems do is to give us a sense that life has meaning, and provide opportunities for each of us to feel like we're valuable participants in that meaningful cosmological drama.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Ernest Becker died just weeks before being awarded the Pulitzer Prize for The Denial of Death.

He never quite experienced the academic validation his work deserved, nor was he able to witness his influence on modern psychology, in particular the efforts of three determined experimental psychologists who conceived of Terror Management Theory as a way to test Becker's claim that humans manage their fear of death with cultural worldviews and self-esteem.

MUSIC: Freedom Drop By Ari De Niro

D.S. MOSS_VO

30 years and hundreds of studies later, Sheldon, Jeff and Tom's Terror Management research has shown that Becker was correct - that human beings manage our fear of death through conformity to cultural standards and self-esteem. 

Specifics, to include the 2016 election, are right after this.

MUSIC: EMERGENCY EXIT BY DR. FRANKENSTEIN 

RUTHIE_VO

Hello fellow provocateurs that believe death is a topic worth talking about. We need your help spreading the word. Be the slightly odd yet endlessly fascinating conversationalist at your next party and tell your friends about The Adventures of Memento Mori.

Have show ideas? Conntact us on our site remembertodie.com

Be sure to stay up to date with the quest for enlightenment on Instagram and Twitter by following @remembertodie.

And now, back to show...

CHAPTER 5: DISTAL & PROXIMAL

MUSIC: Chewy2 BY Cory Gray

D.S. MOSS_VO

We're back with experimental psychologist Sheldon Solomon talking about how humans manage their fear of death.   

D.S. Moss_IN

Those moments when we're aware of death...what's the terminology for...the...reminders of death? I'd imagine it's probably pretty frequent throughout the day, right?

SHELDON SOLOMON

Yeah. That's right. Our argument is that we're bombarded with intimations of mortality, and that what we claim, and what we have experiments that we think demonstrate this point, is that whenever [] death is on your mind, generally that instigates an automatic process. We call these proximal defenses.

D.S. MOSS

Here's a little fun game to play on your commute or where ever you may be listening to this - for the rest of your day, count the number of times you are exposed to a death thought - be it news headlines, tv, film or video game, a lyric in a song, advertising, poem, podcast, nearly getting hit by a car... anything. 

Then, at the end of the day, tweet that number and the country you live in to @remembertodie with the hashtag #deathcount and checkout how you compare to the rest of world. I bet you'll be very surprised by the number.

I, of course, know that I have frequent death thoughts. But out of curiosity, I asked Ruthie to ask you.

SOUND: SFX

Ruthie_IN

How many times a day do you think about death? 

Eamonn

I don't normally.

maybe a couple.

Alexa

Once or twice a day for me, yeah. At least once, occasionally twice.

SAM

Maybe 3-5 times.

D.S. MOSS_VO

So, not often. But, it turns out it may be much more frequent and that we use active efforts to stop consciously thinking about death called proximal defenses. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

Once that happens, that instigates qualitatively different defenses, and those defenses we call "distal defenses," and those are defending your cultural worldview, and boosting self-esteem. Our argument is that the distal defenses are designed to keep death thoughts from becoming conscious.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Welcome to the world of the subconscious. Our own personal little wizard of Oz hiding behind the curtain and pulling all of the conditioned strings.    

CHAPTER 7: CULTURAL WORLDVIEW

SHELDON SOLOMON

In one of our first studies, for example, we had Christian participants at the University of Arizona. They were either reminded of their mortality or something unpleasant, and then we had them rate other fellow students who were very, very similar...

D.S. MOSS_VO

This particular study is testing Becker's theory that we manage the fear of death by subscribing to a constructed belief systems that we share with people in a group that he refers to as cultural worldview.

SHELDON SOLOMON

What we found was quite striking. In the control condition, the Christian participants didn't differentiate between their fellow students as a function of their religion.

D.S. MOSS_VO

However, when they were asked to think about dying first, now they liked fellow Christians a lot more, and they disliked Jewish people a lot more.

SHELDON SOLOMON

This has nothing to do with Christianity per se. In Israel, Jewish people reminded of death, they like Jewish people a lot more, and they dislike Arabs and Christians. In India, Indians reminded of their mortality, they like Indians a lot more, and they dislike folks from other groups.

D.S. MOSS_VO

And this doesn't just apply to religion or race, it's true of group belief systems - sports teams, politics, nationalism, gang affiliations and even veganism.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

That basic finding, that when you're reminded of death, you like people who share your beliefs, and you hate people or will harm people who are different, well, that's been now replicated in more than 25 countries on five continents, by independent researchers. I say that not to boast, so much as to claim that these are very robust findings that can be obtained cross-culturally. They've also been found in kids as young as nine or 10, and in elderly folks as old as 80 or 90.

D.S. MOSS_IN

...that's interesting, because, boy. One of my knee-jerk reactions, or I suppose what I imagine my reaction would be to the study, is counter to that, which is if I am feeling the threat of death, then it becomes more at ease in that we're all in this together. Sort of like the best of humanity. It's this very romantic concept of, if I feel threatened, then I'm like, "Okay. Nothing else matters. We're all in this together. We're all human." But the findings are the exact opposite.

SHELDON SOLOMON

Yes, that's right. But you do make an important point. For most humans, and this has been described as tribal, and a lot of people in the US today say that we have degenerated to a tribal mentality where it's "us against them," so that's correct for most folks.

On the other hand, we have done studies, for example, where we look at how people respond to their mortality as a function of their political orientations. People who describe themselves as liberal, remembering that the word "liberal" means tolerant and open-minded, well, when you remind them that they're going to die, they actually like people who are different even more, just like you just proposed.

D.S. MOSS

Shit, I guess that scientifically proves that I'm a liberal. But for the record, I'm also a fiscal conservative. Which I really hope that doesn't make me a Libertarian - cause I hate those people.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

I do think that these are important caveats. For the average person under typical circumstances, yeah, when reminded of their mortality, they have more negative attitudes towards people who are different. They sit further away from them, if you put them in a room with someone who looks different, and finally, if you give them an opportunity to hurt or harm someone who looks different, they will avow themselves of it.

CHAPTER 8: SELF ESTEEM 

D.S. MOSS_VO

The other mechanism that Becker claims we use for managing the fear of death is self-esteem - defined as: the belief that you're a person of value in a world of meaning.

What the Terror Management Theory research shows is that depending upon what you value in terms of your self-concept, whenever death is on your mind consciously or subconsciously, you're going to be more engaged in the pursuit of that value.

SHELDON SOLOMON

For example, in one study by some clever Israeli psychologists, they found that Israeli soldiers who derived self-esteem from their driving abilities, when their death was made salient, they drove faster and more recklessly on a driving simulator.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Sheldon goes on to describe several other studies that come to the same conclusion - that whatever world of meaning a person believes in, when a death thought is stimulated they consequently pursue more personal value within that meaning. 

For instance - capitalism. In a world from which meaning is derived from having money, when exposed to mortality you'll try boost your self worth by displaying or making more money. 

In a world of meaning found through beauty and perpetual youth one may use cosmetics, diets or plastic surgery to enhance self-esteem in order deny death. This can be applied to any other construct where people find meaning.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

Again, we argue that most of us at most times are not aware that most of our behavior is directed at maintaining a sense that life is meaningful, and that we're valuable. We're certainly not aware that we're doing that in the service of eradicating death anxiety.

D.S. Moss_IN

And so is it fair to say that when exposed to mortality whether it be conscious or subconscious, that you are also prone to have more strong love reaction to those in which you currently love?

SHELDON SOLOMON

Yes so that's right, so empirically what we know is that when people are reminded of their mortality they become more attached to their significant others. Suggesting that the need for love, is magnified when existential anxieties are aroused.

D.S. MOSS_VO

However, he also goes on to say when people who are in a secure and stable relationship, when they're asked to think about that relationship, and then they're subsequently reminded of their death, well then they don't hate people who are different.

MUSIC: Vibrations by Alison Ables

SHELDON SOLOMON

And to me this is very powerful evidence in support of the biblical proposition that... love conquers death.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Love conquers death.

We should ease into the next break on the thought.

But we're not. Because it turns out that Terror Management may have a part in explaining the 2016 election through an effect called Charismatic Leader.  

CHAPTER 9: CHARISMATIC LEADER

SHELDON SOLOMON

"When there's historical upheaval, that creates conditions where people are apt to embrace... a charismatic leader, seemingly larger than life figures who often claim, or that followers claim are uniquely poised to rid the world of evil." 

D.S. MOSS_VO

Studies have shown that during tumultuous times, people become more attached to their tribe or nation and are naturally attracted to a person who exhibits unconflicted personality - in the sense of appearing supremely bold and self-confident.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

I think that's a pretty good account historically of what happened with Hitler. Hitler comes to power at a time where there's tremendous economic and psychological uncertainty in Germany, and he promises that he alone is able to make things better, and it was a big morale booster for Germans at the time.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Sheldon, Tom and Jeff became interested in the idea of Charismatic Leader after they noticed the sudden spike in popularity of George W. Bush immediately after 911.

SHELDON SOLOMON

In three weeks, he went from the day before September 11, the lowest rated president in the history of polling, to three weeks later, pretty much the highest.

D.S. MOSS_VO

But what, you may ask, does this have to do with fear of death?  

SHELDON SOLOMON

We did a bunch of experiments where we found that Americans were not particularly enthusiastic about President Bush and his policies in Iraq, unless they were reminded of death first. Then they liked President Bush a whole lot more.

D.S. MOSS_VO

So, the speeches while standing atop rubble were actually highly effective. Now that's G Dubya, but how does the charismatic leader help to explain the election of reality show con man? 

SHELDON SOLOMON

We would argue that in most historical circumstances, he would not have been taken seriously as a candidate...

...Sure enough, we've done studies that were recently published where we found the same thing as in 2004.

D.S. MOSS_VO

They found that Americans did not care for Trump prior to the election, except if you made them aware of their mortality first.

SOUND: Insert:Trump Running.aiff

D.S. MOSS_VO

Those are soundbites taken from the announcement of his candidacy in which he referred to death 13 times in within a 45 minute speech. 

D.S. Moss_IN

I think the big difference from Hitler and George W. Bush is that there was a thing that, that uncertainty. There was either recovering from war, or there was an active war. I guess what confuses me is, what was the uncertainty in 2017 that was the undertow that made him the charismatic leader?

SHELDON SOLOMON

That's actually a great point, and there's a spirit of disagreement about this, because what some people say is that Trump is an evil genius of sorts, because he manufactured that uncertainty. Specifically, by demonizing Muslims and immigrants...

One thing that I think Trump has done successfully is to scapegoat people for which there's no valid reason. I say that as, in part, an empirical statement, because we've done studies where we've shown that just asking Americans to think about a mosque being built in their town, or an immigrant moving into their neighborhood, is sufficient to make unconscious death anxiety salient.

D.S. MOSS_VO

And statistically speaking, you're far more likely to be killed by a disgruntled white christian than you are a Muslim or Mexican. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

But the other thing is that the economic anxieties that led to the election in 2016 were and are very, very real. The American economy is in transition, and a lot of the well-paying manufacturing jobs have left, and they won't be coming back. I think that Trump sensed that he would be able to exploit those anxieties by referring to a non-existent "golden age."

...These are legitimate concerns, and this is not a political diatribe, but Mr. Trump has done nothing to address those concerns except to make those folks feel better about being white.

D.S. Moss_IN

And this goes directly into the cultural worldview.

SHELDON SOLOMON

That's correct.

MUSIC: vibrations by Alison Ables

D.S. Moss_IN

The more dire things feel, whether legitimate or not, the more they are going to become tribal in however they identify themselves.

SHELDON SOLOMON

Precisely, and that's what our studies have shown. 

D.S. MOSS_VO

So beware of those with a big personality who claim to single handedly solve all of your existential fears.

Also, keep you ears open for when someone makes you aware of your mortality. You're prone to become psychologically vulnerable and they just might be about to ask you for something. 

MUSIC: "O CEREBRO DO MORTO" BY DR. FRANKENSTEIN 

RUTHIE_VO

Do you consider yourself a fan of podcasts? Show it by donating to the Adventures of Memento Mori. Donate 10 dollars or more and we'll mail you a surprise Memento Mori keepsake. $100 or more will give you a post credit shout out to let the world know how much you mean to us. Go to remembertodie.com slash donate. That's remembertodie.com slash donate.   

MUSIC: "Stolen moments return" BY  Alison Ables

 CHAPTER 11: WHAT TO DO WITH THE INFO

D.S. MOSS_VO

So now what? I'm enlightened with the knowledge that cultural worldviews and self esteem are just defense mechanisms that serve to manage that terror of my mortality, but how does this enable me to live with death? 

SHELDON SOLOMON

...if we really knew how to live with death, we'd all have pineapples with rum in it, or coconuts, and Nobel Prizes.

D.S. MOSS_VO

The point Sheldon makes is that the fear of death is natural.

SHELDON SOLOMON

Any creature designed by billions of years of evolution to persist, or to avoid premature termination, is going to be afraid of dying if that entity becomes conscious, and so death anxiety is not going to go away, nor should it, because if you weren't anxious about death, you'd probably be dead long ago.

D.S. MOSS

He also says that it's not death anxiety per se that causes human misery. 

SHELDON SOLOMON

It's when we, metaphorically speaking, bury that anxiety under the psychological bushes. When we repress it, and then it comes back to bear bitter fruit, in the form of hating people who are different,...being disrespectful to the environment, and those kinds of unsavory affectations that may make us the first form of life to be responsible for our own extinction.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Since I want to live in a world where we all peacefully drink rum out pineapple together, based on this conversation I've come up with my own living with death guide. 

It begins with sitting still long enough to reflect on the fact that I'm going to die.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

When you do that, what happens psychologically is that that obliterates the culturally constructed belief system... and when that happens, then you're prone to experience massive anxiety, because here you are kind of quivering on the threshold of psychological oblivion.

D.S. MOSS_VO

Once at the threshold of psychological oblivion, embrace the fear of nothingness. After all it's the menace of nothing that creates the something.

SHELDON SOLOMON

Then what Kierkegaard said, he called it a "leap of faith." He's like, "Okay. Now that you realize the reality of the human condition. You, like all other creatures are finite and mortal." When you let the real anxiety of that sink in to the point where it momentarily shatters these belief systems that you involuntarily adopted long before you were even aware that you existed, then and only then can you start to...

MUSIC: The Pony Collapsed by Alison ables

...kind of metaphorically reconstruct yourself where you have a hand in choosing your own meanings, and your own values.

D.S. MOSS_VO

And then I will attempt to be tribal agnostic, disassociate with self-identifiers and create my own world of meaning. Which basically, makes me either a Stoic or a Buddhist - if, of course, I self-identified.  

SHELDON SOLOMON

I know that that's dissatisfying for some- myself included, at times- where we would like a more concrete recipe for psychological equanimity, but I think that the argument in general is that we need to learn to live with death by accepting that it will happen, and to fashion meaningful and valuable lives that are not based on fundamentally denying the fact that we're only here for a short while.

CHAPTER 12: CONCLUSION

D.S. MOSS

Oh, yes, I almost forgot the whole purpose for calling Dr. Solomon in the first place. What school should I go to? 

SHELDON SOLOMON

I like what you're doing. I think how you're approaching these ideas is ultimately more valuable for reaching a larger number of people. I mean, I'm proud of what I do, but I'm an egghead academic. I consider myself a non-pharmacological intervention to insomnia, whereas what you do, no, it's witty, it's engaging, and what really comes out is that you have a personal commitment to these ideas.

...and I think there's some value in your own musings and the way that you've chosen to pursue them, in terms of perhaps helping people, myself included, think about, "How is it that we can live in light of the fact that we accept that we'll not always be here?"

...I commend you.

D.S. MOSS_VO

And so I've decided ditch the Dr. Moss idea and will be trading a starving student life for a starving podcaster life. Luckily for me, after accepting death, I no longer get my self esteem from making money. Well, sort of. 

MUSIC: "3 in Raw" BY jazzafari

D.S. MOSS_VO

Thanks for joining me on another season of The Adventures of Memento Mori...and thank you for not only making us the #1 death podcast but a top 50 podcast regardless of topic or genre.  

Thanks to Tricia Eastman - you can find links to her work and a full death meditation on our site www.remembertodie.com, Thank you Devin Martin and special thanks to Sheldon Solomon. Don't forget to count your death thoughts and tweet them to us with the hashtag "deathcount"   

I am D.S. Moss. Back again in two weeks for more...The Adventures of Memento Mori.

MUSIC: END WITH OUR THEME MUSIC

FEMALE ANNOUNCER

The episode was produced by Josh Heilbronner and D.S. Moss Theme music composed by Mikey Ballou. This has been a production of The Jones Story Company. Until the next time... remember to die.